1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:03,319 INTERVIEWER: Let's start at the beginning. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:08,440 What do you remember of Julia coming into your life? 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,480 I remember people calling her by different names as a child. 4 00:00:12,599 --> 00:00:15,918 MAN: Probably all of us have a little sense of the dark triad 5 00:00:15,919 --> 00:00:17,198 in us for certain things. 6 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:19,000 We just don't go as far as Julia did. 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:20,759 She wanted a hug. 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,638 She wanted to be told that we loved her. 9 00:00:22,639 --> 00:00:24,119 There was no way she was getting the kids, 10 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:25,360 and that's all she wanted. 11 00:00:25,879 --> 00:00:28,518 Julia Parrish, Croein Ruttle. 12 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:31,599 He had invested $392,000. 13 00:00:31,919 --> 00:00:33,760 I think she was compelled to con. 14 00:00:34,919 --> 00:00:39,000 She had pretty much swindled half the businesses in this town. 15 00:00:39,519 --> 00:00:40,760 Yeah, but what if I'm wrong? 16 00:00:40,919 --> 00:00:43,000 Because apparently she's dying of cancer. 17 00:00:43,279 --> 00:00:45,399 There was no feeling, no emotion in her eyes. 18 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:46,479 She would just... 19 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,719 You're looking there for a second, saying, right, 20 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,638 he shot her, he shot himself. Evil is what you call her. 21 00:00:51,639 --> 00:00:53,239 Just pure evil. 22 00:00:54,639 --> 00:00:57,359 INTERVIEWER: What did you know about her past life? 23 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,759 That she told me or that I found out? 24 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:00,878 And when? That she told you. 25 00:01:00,879 --> 00:01:02,639 Okay, this is fun. You ready? 26 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:03,839 Buckle up. 27 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:06,800 (intriguing music plays) 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,878 REPORTER: On the 18th of May, 2015, a gang of thieves who broke 29 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:46,278 into this house in Boolaglass in Askeaton to steal scrap 30 00:01:46,279 --> 00:01:48,239 metal made a grim discovery. 31 00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:53,518 {\an8}You know, burglars finding two dead bodies, 32 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:55,839 {\an8}reporting it to us before our knowledge. 33 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:59,319 Could we have predicted who this woman would become in our 34 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:00,919 investigation? 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,359 There was names coming at us, different first name, 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,159 different second name. Julia... 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:09,440 appeared to be the common trend. 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,760 Put this lady's name into a search engine and... up it comes. 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,720 This lady was infamous. 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,639 She was wanted by the PSNI for fraud offences. 41 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,239 She had been convicted in the United States. 42 00:02:23,559 --> 00:02:25,080 She certainly burned a lot of people. 43 00:02:26,599 --> 00:02:28,160 Who is this woman? 44 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,799 We had to identify what kinda footprint, 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,279 and it was a big footprint that this lady left. 46 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,839 For Cecilia Julian McKitterick, life begins in the small 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,440 rural town of Castlederg. 48 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,680 Born in 1952, there's very little known about her early years. 49 00:02:55,959 --> 00:02:58,759 What is established, though, is that when she's 19, 50 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,559 she marries a British soldier. 51 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:03,318 She has a son with him, and then when he's six 52 00:03:03,319 --> 00:03:04,919 months old, she leaves. 53 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:08,999 I guess the biggest date, the beginning of this whole 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,760 journey, was the abandonment of her son in 1972. 55 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,399 And then we jump forward 11 years to 1983, 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,119 and she's in Armagh jail, the women's prison. 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,638 We think she was in there because of some issue over 58 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,120 missing television sets. 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:24,879 Not a pleasant place to be. 60 00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:27,039 You go forward another year, 61 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,238 she's then moving her mind into America. 62 00:03:30,239 --> 00:03:33,599 {\an8}But instead of going to America legally and getting a visa, 63 00:03:33,959 --> 00:03:36,278 {\an8}getting the tickets, getting everything done properly. 64 00:03:36,279 --> 00:03:39,518 She goes into Canada, and then she skips into America, 65 00:03:39,519 --> 00:03:40,720 and she does that illegally. 66 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,440 You embody the goals that guide the Republican Party, 67 00:03:47,839 --> 00:03:51,480 and you represent the future, a future of opportunity. 68 00:03:51,879 --> 00:03:54,159 Now is the time to become active. 69 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,079 INTERVIEWER: Can you remember how they met? 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,519 Yes, they met through mutual friends at a party. 71 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:04,198 {\an8}Our parents had recently divorced in 1984, and we went from our 72 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:07,800 {\an8}parents being divorced to this woman with us everywhere we went. 73 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,199 She did this thing where she would be very relatable to you. 74 00:04:12,319 --> 00:04:14,680 I have a dog. Oh, I have a dog, too. 75 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,878 And I went here. Oh, I went there, too. Isn't it lovely? 76 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:20,959 And even if it was total farce, she was definitely 77 00:04:21,559 --> 00:04:24,958 trying to relate to you in some way, and she wanted to insert 78 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:28,199 herself in every aspect of your life. 79 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,480 I don't believe that my dad ever saw his parents without her 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:35,919 after they met. 81 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:40,599 Yeah, she was charming. She was sweet. 82 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,558 We went from my dad being our caretaker when we were at his 83 00:04:45,559 --> 00:04:49,079 home to Julia being our caretaker, and that happened overnight. 84 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,918 It happened in the of an eye, and there was no transition to that. 85 00:04:51,919 --> 00:04:55,919 She just was so keen on inserting herself into our lives. 86 00:04:56,879 --> 00:04:58,999 I think my dad was like, this is great. 87 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,279 It's a built-in mom. 88 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,519 JILLY: She marries this guy, poor Clyde Parrish, 89 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,518 not telling anybody that she's already married and 90 00:05:06,519 --> 00:05:07,519 has never divorced. 91 00:05:08,199 --> 00:05:10,119 So that's a bigamist marriage. 92 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,760 That's pretty big crime in most states. 93 00:05:19,919 --> 00:05:21,080 My memories of Julia. 94 00:05:23,239 --> 00:05:28,760 I first met Julie in March 2011. 95 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,558 Dad said he had split up with his then-girlfriend, who I'd 96 00:05:33,559 --> 00:05:35,559 actually really grown to like. 97 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,360 She just came out of nowhere. 98 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,480 His mother told him basically everything to do. 99 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,519 And I think that's what he saw in her. 100 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:50,399 He was very kind, very shy. 101 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,318 He wouldn't be the one to put himself forward, but genuine. 102 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:55,918 If he said something, he meant it. 103 00:05:55,919 --> 00:05:57,239 There was no bull with him. 104 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:58,839 He was a lovely guy. 105 00:05:59,239 --> 00:06:01,919 Sure, I was with him. He was lovely. (laughs) 106 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,239 Tom actually said they met online, a dating app. 107 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,279 She saw him coming. 108 00:06:10,559 --> 00:06:14,679 A man with two children, having him every second weekend. 109 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,198 Oh, this is lovely. I can go and hide 110 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:18,919 in that lovely little family group. 111 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:23,439 She was kinda running his life, I would say, at that time. 112 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,120 And that was only the first time I met them. 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,359 When we met her, she had constantly asked us, 114 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,400 do we love her? And we were... I was 14 at the time. 115 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,239 Maybe it was the first weekend that Ian came back and 116 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,959 he said to me that she keeps asking me, Mum, do I love her? 117 00:06:46,239 --> 00:06:48,759 And she wanted hugs and everything. 118 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,120 And Ian just said, I don't know her mum. 119 00:06:51,319 --> 00:06:54,799 I felt guilty that I didn't love her, but... 120 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,918 this is probably the second time that I met her. 121 00:06:56,919 --> 00:06:58,958 She wanted this family image. 122 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:02,760 I don't understand really what it was about. 123 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,400 1972, her son is born and she leaves him. 124 00:07:12,559 --> 00:07:15,480 She's in County Down by this stage and he's six months old. 125 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,160 He's left to be raised by his paternal grandparents. 126 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Very little. You wonder when the liar in her starts. 127 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:29,040 Paul died at 13 from leukaemia. 128 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,719 JILLY: I was sorry I knocked the door because... 129 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,120 the look on his face has never left me. 130 00:07:37,279 --> 00:07:40,919 It was shocking to me when I found Paul alive and doing very well. 131 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,080 My heart broke for him because he said, 132 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,559 I don't want anybody to think I have anything to do with her. 133 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:50,918 She left that child 134 00:07:50,919 --> 00:07:53,000 to become a professional fraudster. 135 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,518 Dodged a great big bullet by her leaving. 136 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:57,119 It was probably the best thing that could have happened 137 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:58,440 to him, was her leaving him. 138 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680 It started in Houston. 139 00:08:04,839 --> 00:08:08,400 She was going by Julia Holmes, Dr. Holmes, because 140 00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:10,958 did you guys know that she said she 141 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,800 was a psychiatrist? With a medical degree? 142 00:08:14,279 --> 00:08:17,480 Then it turned into a PhD, so I don't really know which one. 143 00:08:19,599 --> 00:08:22,638 The reason it's so ingrained in my brain was that she was 144 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:26,278 actually seeing a little boy who was around my age and claiming 145 00:08:26,279 --> 00:08:27,680 to be a child psychiatrist. 146 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,919 She had a framed diploma. 147 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:31,679 She saw patients. 148 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,158 She took money for those services, and she provided counselling. 149 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,679 It was a very strange thing. It was a very brazen thing to do. 150 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,479 The adults were so charmed by her, and they were enamoured by her. 151 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,039 She was the most wonderful thing that had ever happened to them. 152 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:48,919 And the kids, we weren't so much. 153 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,119 One little mistake and one little error, 154 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,319 she would hit us, hard. 155 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,799 It was very cunning because she wouldn't do it in front 156 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,959 of other adults. We would say, she just hit me. 157 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,800 She would say, Oh, no, no, no. They're just saying that. 158 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,159 And she would spin it as, they don't like me because I'm 159 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,559 the stepmother, and they're trying to push us apart. 160 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,039 And as an adult, that sounds very reasonable because 161 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,279 she's a child psychiatrist, don't you know? 162 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:20,479 I think there was never a time until I was a teenager that I was 163 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,360 with her, that she wasn't hitting me. 164 00:09:24,279 --> 00:09:27,598 My dad worked, and always has worked, very, very hard. 165 00:09:27,599 --> 00:09:29,080 He's incredible work ethic. 166 00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:31,558 He had a place on Korff, and then 167 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,318 I'm sure that the lease that he had 168 00:09:33,319 --> 00:09:35,839 on that place, she probably messed that up in some way. 169 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,440 Then he had to run his shop out of our garage. 170 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:41,680 It was the first sign of, well, that's a big shift. 171 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,000 Within a year of her coming on board, he's now in a garage. 172 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,318 Julia had made a rule that we were not to see 173 00:09:55,319 --> 00:09:57,199 my dad's parents anymore. 174 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,119 I guess at some point, they've realised that something's 175 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,800 a little off. Creditors calling, things that way. 176 00:10:03,319 --> 00:10:05,119 I remember it like it was yesterday, 177 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,440 we had gone to my dad's, and it was a Saturday. 178 00:10:07,839 --> 00:10:10,559 I was sitting behind my dad, so she whipped around, 179 00:10:10,959 --> 00:10:14,839 and she said to me, you've been seeing your Pa and Granny. 180 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,238 We told you if you saw your Pa and Granny anymore, 181 00:10:18,239 --> 00:10:20,680 you would no longer see your Dad and I. 182 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:23,318 And at this point, my sister's crying, I'm crying. 183 00:10:23,319 --> 00:10:26,599 The entire way there, she berated us, 184 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,439 called us liars, called us everything you could 185 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,519 think of to a small child. 186 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:32,638 I don't know what my dad was thinking. 187 00:10:32,639 --> 00:10:35,120 I don't remember him saying anything the entire time. 188 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,278 When we arrived back at my mother's home, 189 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:39,839 Julia lunged at my mother 190 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,680 and physically attacked her in our driveway. 191 00:10:44,599 --> 00:10:47,439 Very soon after that, very, very soon, they left. 192 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,639 Looking back, I know now she had run up debts. 193 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,439 And picking a fight with me and having that reason to leave. 194 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,518 That was just the beginning of, We have to get out of here. 195 00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:57,238 Oh, look at your daughters. They're so hateful. 196 00:10:57,239 --> 00:10:59,160 They don't even appreciate that you're here. 197 00:10:59,599 --> 00:11:02,278 I've always thought she always had an idea of where she wanted to go 198 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:05,959 next, and I've always felt like she had pre-planned it. 199 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,518 There was a jewellery store located next to 200 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:27,558 their print shop, and it was so crazy. 201 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,079 She somehow convinced them to allow her 202 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,400 to borrow jewellery, 203 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:33,359 and then she would go back and tell them, 204 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,558 I never borrowed that jewellery before. 205 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,638 I'd spoken to the jeweller, and they said, Oh, yes, 206 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:39,239 she stole all of that from us. 207 00:11:52,839 --> 00:11:57,599 {\an8}So there's this trail of crime that they're leaving behind, 208 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,160 {\an8}but she's never been convicted yet. 209 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,399 It boggled my mind that she could continue to, and it probably was 210 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,239 the reason that gave her so much confidence. 211 00:12:12,279 --> 00:12:14,079 At the end of March 2011, 212 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,479 I remember getting a phone call and I answered it. 213 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,759 It was Tom, and he was very different. 214 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,958 He was very cocky, very sure of himself. 215 00:12:21,959 --> 00:12:24,159 And straight away, I went, something going on here. 216 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,799 I don't know what it is, 217 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,239 but I know there's something going on here. 218 00:12:28,199 --> 00:12:32,040 So she came on the phone then and she eat the face off me 219 00:12:32,199 --> 00:12:35,360 and told me I wasn't fit to be a mother. 220 00:12:35,599 --> 00:12:38,079 You've met your match, and all this kinda stuff. 221 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,518 And I went, Oh, my God, 222 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:40,919 I don't know what is going on here. 223 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,400 My world just tumbled down right in front of me. 224 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,599 She's crazy. She's absolutely crazy. 225 00:12:51,959 --> 00:12:54,399 She started telling me that they had been in a relationship 226 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,958 before, and I knew this was all lies. 227 00:12:57,959 --> 00:12:59,720 Lies, lies, lies, everything. 228 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,080 Tom had only met her for three weeks. 229 00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:05,959 A couple of days later, when Ian got his new card, 230 00:13:06,599 --> 00:13:09,800 he accepted her request to be friends. 231 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,759 And she had put up a post about, I've met a fantastic man. 232 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,360 I'm really in love with him. 233 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,319 And in the package is two lovely boys. 234 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,318 In my head, I just saw red. That's it. 235 00:13:24,319 --> 00:13:25,480 I know what she's after. 236 00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:27,278 There was no way she was getting the kids, 237 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:28,279 and that's all she wanted. 238 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:35,479 I believe by the time they got 239 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,400 to Arizona, she was no longer a doctor. 240 00:13:38,919 --> 00:13:42,198 But yeah, I remember her having all these different names, 241 00:13:42,199 --> 00:13:44,999 and I remember people calling her by different names as a child. 242 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,079 Someone would call her Jay, and she had a big story when they 243 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,719 lived in New Mexico that she could not be known to be 244 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,918 a female business owner, so she had to change her name 245 00:13:53,919 --> 00:13:55,760 to Jay, J-A-Y. 246 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,638 So the woman we got to know was Julia, started life as 247 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:02,958 Cecilia Julia McKittrick, but she had dozens of names 248 00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:04,639 throughout her criminal enterprises. 249 00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:07,279 Elizabeth Holmes, Parrish Watson. 250 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,238 Jay Holmes, Jay Parrish. 251 00:14:10,239 --> 00:14:14,080 Julia O'Neill, Julia Hunter, Julia Greer, Julie Ruttle, 252 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,598 Julia Ruttle, Jules Ruttle, Julian Ruttle. 253 00:14:17,599 --> 00:14:22,639 Julia Parrish, Croein Ruttle. I think Julia Greer or Julie Greer. 254 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,439 Silver Light Ruttle, 255 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,599 posing as a high priestess witch on Facebook (chuckle), 256 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,799 and she was also White Wolf, Quiet spirit. 257 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,238 And she posed then as a shaman on Facebook as well. 258 00:14:32,239 --> 00:14:33,599 And people responded to her. 259 00:14:33,959 --> 00:14:36,479 She started saying that her name was Bonnie Parrish 260 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,160 so that she could say that she and my dad were Bonnie and Clyde. 261 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,558 I think she would frequently use a different name 262 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:45,518 and then have to backtrack 263 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:47,039 and then try to gaslight you into believing 264 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:48,318 that she never said that. 265 00:14:48,319 --> 00:14:49,800 She never said her name was PJ. 266 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,959 Why would you make that up, Morris? 267 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Why would you do that? You're fibbing. 268 00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:55,639 That's a lie. 269 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,838 And she was very convincing. 270 00:14:57,839 --> 00:15:01,279 She was gaslighting before any of us used the term gaslighting. 271 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,439 Where do you store all that history 272 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,359 for when you want to convince your 273 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,919 next person that you're going to groom, who you are? 274 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,160 Do you keep a book? 275 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:15,999 How do you do that? 276 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,598 Because if you work from truth, you've only got one set 277 00:15:18,599 --> 00:15:19,999 of memories to deal with. 278 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:25,199 But if you work from all of her lies, she had acres of lies. 279 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,199 That she told me or that I found out? 280 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Okay, this is fun. You ready? 281 00:15:33,239 --> 00:15:34,279 Buckle up. 282 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:35,518 (man chuckles) Okay. 283 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:39,120 She was the only girl, and she had two older brothers. 284 00:15:39,599 --> 00:15:42,159 They owned all this land in Ireland, and they were very 285 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,598 wealthy, and they called her every Sunday. 286 00:15:44,599 --> 00:15:46,278 I don't know who she was talking to, but she would have 287 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:49,400 conversations on the phone with someone in Ireland, supposedly. 288 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,839 They were always coming to visit. 289 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,839 But you heard the term catfishing, right? 290 00:15:56,319 --> 00:15:58,120 She was doing a reverse catfish. 291 00:15:58,319 --> 00:16:01,958 They have two little boys, exactly my sisters and my age. 292 00:16:01,959 --> 00:16:04,999 I mean, we are just ecstatic. These are cousins. 293 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,080 They're coming to see us. 294 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,958 Before we go to the airport to pick them up, 295 00:16:08,959 --> 00:16:10,199 Julia gets a call. 296 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,919 The entire family is wiped out. They're all dead. 297 00:16:14,319 --> 00:16:15,319 They're all dead. 298 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,799 Fiery car crash on the way to the airport to come to Houston 299 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,598 to see his sister, his beloved sister. 300 00:16:21,599 --> 00:16:23,159 His wife is dead. The two children are dead. 301 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,279 Fiery car crash, dead. All of them dead. 302 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,719 She had so much loss in her family of people who were coming 303 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,120 to visit us that just died. 304 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,399 It was the craziest thing. 305 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,919 I remember being really upset that these people had died. 306 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,000 And no, they weren't dead because they never existed. 307 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,719 She had to just go into the room and lock herself away, 308 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,119 and she was very distraught. 309 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,839 And, oh, my goodness, the entire world has ended. 310 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:49,759 She should have been an actress. 311 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,199 She would have won awards. 312 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,319 {\an8}(crackly voice recording) 313 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,357 The only contact we had was text messages, phone calls, 314 00:17:06,358 --> 00:17:08,919 but it was never dad that was on the other end of the phone. 315 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,079 It was always her. 316 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,719 She had him controlled at that point. 317 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,159 Three or four months later, she confronted me, 318 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,480 and and asked me, did I have a problem with her. 319 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,759 And it was that same day that she told me she was pregnant. 320 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,520 She would have been 59 that day, so not entirely sure 321 00:17:36,719 --> 00:17:38,319 what that was about. 322 00:17:39,799 --> 00:17:41,319 So they were going to get married. 323 00:17:41,719 --> 00:17:45,559 And at this point, it was too crazy for me. 324 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,758 It was too crazy for me. 325 00:17:46,759 --> 00:17:50,038 And she knew she wasn't getting the boys for this so-called 326 00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:52,678 wedding, which wasn't a wedding, it was a blessing. 327 00:17:52,679 --> 00:17:54,479 And she got very, very cross with that. 328 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,519 So then she made up that Ian was making the dinners and he was 329 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,160 looking after the kids, all this lies. 330 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:04,759 So she rang social services and said all that stuff to them. 331 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,600 And I was taken into social services. 332 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,920 She was doing everything in her power to get the lads. 333 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,919 We actually ended up going up to the house 334 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,318 a couple of months later. 335 00:18:20,319 --> 00:18:22,039 There was nobody there. They weren't there. 336 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,999 Ian was really pining for his dad at this point. 337 00:18:25,399 --> 00:18:31,079 So I stayed in the car and then they arrived into the yard. 338 00:18:31,719 --> 00:18:33,719 There was nobody there. 339 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:37,719 So we went walking in the field where he usually has the bees, 340 00:18:38,719 --> 00:18:40,439 and then they shut up. 341 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:43,679 I don't remember what they said or anything. 342 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,480 I just remember being behind Ian, just looking at the grass. 343 00:18:49,439 --> 00:18:53,479 He just told me, just leave, just leave. 344 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,279 He said it was legal matter between him and my mum, 345 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,160 so we just had to leave. 346 00:18:58,399 --> 00:19:03,759 It's a lot of feelings... that you kinda push down. 347 00:19:04,999 --> 00:19:06,798 She didn't even look at either of us. 348 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:08,480 She just walked straight into the house. 349 00:19:18,399 --> 00:19:21,718 There are three types of folks from East Texas. 350 00:19:21,719 --> 00:19:26,640 You got law enforcement, you have preachers and you have criminals. 351 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,999 And on occasion, there might be one or two of the same. 352 00:19:35,079 --> 00:19:38,519 As you look into the background of people, it's very interesting 353 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,479 to see to what extent they will go 354 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,959 to bolster their own reputation as 355 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,559 being reliable and dependable and someone that you can trust. 356 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,880 And that's essential to be a good con artist. 357 00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:51,200 People have to trust you. 358 00:19:51,799 --> 00:19:55,039 And for Julia and Clyde, both of them, 359 00:19:56,999 --> 00:19:59,960 Claim to be ministers, people of the cloth. 360 00:20:00,399 --> 00:20:04,718 In East Texas, this is not only the Bible Belt, 361 00:20:04,719 --> 00:20:06,719 this is the buckle of the Bible Belt. 362 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,998 If you are a minister, you have very high 363 00:20:09,999 --> 00:20:11,119 standing in the community. 364 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,960 But to be a minister, you simply need to proclaim you're minister. 365 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,159 And in Julia's case, she just put it on her business 366 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,280 card that she was Reverend Julia Parrish. 367 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,600 She was a rock star in Athens. She hit her stride in Athens. 368 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,640 She was part of whatever the county Republican Party Group 369 00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:37,039 supporters were. 370 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,239 {\an8}She was very involved in community service there and bought a little 371 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,559 {\an8}piece land in town and put some mobile homes on there, 372 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,640 {\an8}and they rented them out or sold them. 373 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:51,038 In East Texas, there's an organisation called 374 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,559 the Cattle Barons Association, and every year, they put together 375 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,438 a big gala, a big ball to raise funds for cancer, 376 00:20:58,439 --> 00:21:02,439 and she was part of that and she even made a large donation. 377 00:21:02,719 --> 00:21:05,798 The community saw that, and they saw that she was willing 378 00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:09,118 to sacrifice her own personal funds. 379 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,199 Little did they know, they weren't her funds. 380 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,119 They were people she swindled. 381 00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:18,599 She was making very large purchases, larger than anything 382 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,319 I had ever seen her make before. 383 00:21:20,759 --> 00:21:25,520 The land, very expensive jewellery, very expensive coats. 384 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,239 I remember going with her and her telling these young ladies, 385 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,559 she was showing off her jewellery and her saying, If you get a rich 386 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,799 man, too, he'll buy you jewellery like this. 387 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,160 I remember thinking, my dad didn't buy her that. 388 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,479 There's something called the dark triad, 389 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,880 psychological traits that we often see in con artists. 390 00:21:49,999 --> 00:21:54,559 There's narcissism, which is where people have a very 391 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:55,840 high regard for themselves. 392 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:04,038 She fancied herself to be a very strong political advocate, 393 00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:05,519 a certain group, certain party. 394 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,599 She had photographs that she showed people 395 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,560 of her with Vice President Dan Quayle, for instance. 396 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,118 She had another photograph that she showed people where she was 397 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,920 with the actor Patrick Swayze. 398 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,119 But that helped bolster her narcissism there. 399 00:22:20,679 --> 00:22:23,959 The other one is the idea that 400 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,559 you have psychopathic tendencies. 401 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,839 And what that is, is simply you don't have any kind of 402 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,599 empathy for others. 403 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,359 You don't feel there's a guilt from taking their money. 404 00:22:34,679 --> 00:22:38,398 It's no big deal for a doctor to, take money from him because 405 00:22:38,399 --> 00:22:39,639 he's making all this money. 406 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,998 People have insurance, so they rationalise through it. 407 00:22:42,999 --> 00:22:45,319 But still, she had victims there. 408 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,319 The third part of the triad is machiavellianism. 409 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,759 The idea that you're cunning and you use this cunning 410 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,679 to manipulate people, get them to do what you want them to do. 411 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,639 There's certain levels of this dark triad that... 412 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,159 you see it in serial killers, 413 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,999 but you see it very often in the con artist. 414 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:22,119 From July 2012, the lads didn't see Tom at all from then on. 415 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:30,319 The last time, very last time I met him, Dad took Mum to court. 416 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,359 He was arrears in child support payments. 417 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,599 One of the ways I think that they wanted to get out was, 418 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,280 he was thinking that I wasn't his child. 419 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,799 So he wanted a DNA test done. 420 00:23:44,999 --> 00:23:49,359 He did actually try to do this paternity test three times. 421 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,640 You wouldn't recognise him. 422 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,880 I just remember he was very cold, very distant. 423 00:23:57,399 --> 00:23:59,160 Have you stooped that low? 424 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,319 How low are we going to go, like, with this? 425 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,559 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 426 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,318 A 100%, she was doing it. 427 00:24:09,319 --> 00:24:14,519 How can someone that looked after us and loved us so 428 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:20,799 much, go so cruel and cold in such a short amount of time. 429 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,038 2001 is when my second son was born. 430 00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:33,758 So after that, we were seeing each other again. 431 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:35,600 I would go up and spend a few days. 432 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,758 And then whenever my dad was diagnosed with cancer, 433 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:40,840 I think my dad really wanted us back in his life. 434 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,718 One morning, I received a complaint from a doctor, 435 00:24:45,719 --> 00:24:46,879 Dennis Rose. 436 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,998 He told me a story that was rather hard to believe 437 00:24:51,999 --> 00:24:57,799 how he had been swindled out of nearly $400,000. 438 00:24:59,399 --> 00:25:01,718 A lot of the victims will basically 439 00:25:01,719 --> 00:25:04,240 say, okay, I lost it, and I'm not doing anything because 440 00:25:04,439 --> 00:25:05,879 I don't want word getting out. 441 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,438 And again, somebody like Dennis Rose is 442 00:25:08,439 --> 00:25:11,280 {\an8}in a small town, small community, and word is going to get out. 443 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,959 Dennis Rose was Clyde Parrish's oncologist and a well-known 444 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,079 and well-liked doctor. 445 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,678 He got to know Julia very well during the time 446 00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:23,199 of Clyde's treatment. 447 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,439 I think that my dad genuinely liked them, and he had no idea. 448 00:25:28,719 --> 00:25:32,998 She's grooming the oncologist while the oncologist is 449 00:25:32,999 --> 00:25:35,759 saving her husband's life. I find that kinda mind-blowing. 450 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,200 The opportunity was, that she had inherited a large bit of land 451 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,600 in Ireland, and that land consisted of old buildings. 452 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,160 She and a cousin of hers, who was an attorney, 453 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,799 had proposed to renovate these old buildings and turn them into 454 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,679 single-family dwellings. 455 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,879 If they would invest now, they could expect to receive up to 456 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,439 700% returns on their investment. 457 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,200 Based on the fact that they were friends 458 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,038 and the fact that 459 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,960 Dennis Rose had basically saved her husband's life, 460 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,239 this was a was a believable story, 461 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,200 and it was something that he was willing to take part in. 462 00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,879 She mentioned to him that other investors 463 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,919 had not been able to come 464 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,318 up with the money, so this was an extra opportunity 465 00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:26,399 that he had to invest more. 466 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,519 So he continued to invest incrementally until he 467 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,319 had invested $392,000. 468 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,999 Julia and Clyde started working on their friends. 469 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:40,959 From there on, they were able to get at least four 470 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,039 other people involved in the scheme. 471 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,078 So we had a total of $517,000 people had invested 472 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:51,679 into this scheme before it started to come unravelled. 473 00:26:51,999 --> 00:26:54,038 But it was Dennis Rose that was her downfall 474 00:26:54,039 --> 00:26:56,078 in America because he was 475 00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:58,358 told that you'll get a lot of money back, 476 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,799 plus interest and everything. And he wanted his money back. 477 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,159 I would expect, if this was a legitimate 478 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,358 investment, that Dennis Rose's 479 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,758 cheques would be cashed and that she 480 00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:14,798 would send that amount over to Ireland 481 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,319 for the construction project. None of that was taking place. 482 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,959 What I did find, though, was that Julia was writing cheques 483 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,880 for purchase of new vehicles. 484 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,520 She had Rolex watches, all kinds of expenditures that 485 00:27:28,999 --> 00:27:30,880 were well above her means. 486 00:27:31,999 --> 00:27:34,719 Looking things up online was sorta the new thing to do. 487 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,318 So I'd always been very interested in her past because her 488 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:39,519 past was so variable. 489 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,719 It just depended on the day. 490 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:43,519 I She managed to get a hold of the social security number she 491 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,279 was using, and I traced her back to a young lady who had 492 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,679 passed away who lived in Ohio. 493 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,799 I've often wondered if me looking into all that, threw up red flags. 494 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,839 Once you show your hand, they're scattering like rats. 495 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,919 They're going and destroying evidence. 496 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,038 She wasn't even in the country legally, 497 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:04,200 so she was a flight risk. 498 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,479 One of the best things you can do when you're confronting a con 499 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,799 artist is get them to lie to you. 500 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,880 Let her lay out what this investment was. 501 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,038 We took Julia into her office. We sat her down. 502 00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:22,678 I introduced myself as an FBI agent, 503 00:28:22,679 --> 00:28:25,560 and the colour went away from her face. 504 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,160 And I just sat there for a moment and just let her 505 00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:32,879 collect her thoughts. 506 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,640 And I said, Okay, tell me about Dennis Rose. 507 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,678 She had gone 19 and a half years, and she had scammed everyone 508 00:28:40,679 --> 00:28:46,159 that she ever met. She had become so proficient at walking that line 509 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,640 and playing that game. 510 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,759 I think she believed she was untouchable. 511 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,159 She explained the investment from top to bottom. 512 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,398 At that point, I said, Julia, I don't think that is true. 513 00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:57,919 I think this is a fraud. 514 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,959 I think you defrauded Dennis Rose. 515 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,678 And she said, oh, no, no, I haven't done that. 516 00:29:01,679 --> 00:29:03,159 This is an actual investment. 517 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,600 And then I put before her the telephone records. 518 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,600 You don't have any calls to Ireland. 519 00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:12,119 And then she turned another shade of white. 520 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,998 And then I put before her the bank records, 521 00:29:14,999 --> 00:29:16,960 and I said, do you see these bank records right here? 522 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,279 There's no indication that any of the funds that you've taken in 523 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,240 have gone over for any investments. 524 00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:27,679 That's when she came up with her next lie. 525 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,199 You don't understand. 526 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,959 I've been involved in gambling, and I have all these gambling 527 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,239 debts, and that's what I was using. 528 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,920 I intended to send it over there. 529 00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:39,319 And then I said, Julia, that's not the case. 530 00:29:39,719 --> 00:29:40,879 You spend it. 531 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,479 You got Rolex watches, other investments. 532 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,520 Clyde had an ultra light aircraft. 533 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,998 And at that point, she pretty much said, Okay, you got me. 534 00:29:50,999 --> 00:29:53,160 That's the point that I arrested her. 535 00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:01,358 Between July 29, 2002, 536 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:04,438 and continuing until at least December 18, 537 00:30:04,439 --> 00:30:06,639 2003, Julia Parrish, 538 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,398 who was then Clyde Parrish's wife, 539 00:30:09,399 --> 00:30:11,240 devised a scheme and artifice 540 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,079 to defraud and to obtain money by means of false pretences, 541 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,159 representations and promises from, 542 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,119 among others, Dennis Rose. 543 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,239 There wasn't a whole lot of evidence that she produced 544 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,039 showing this investment in Ireland. 545 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:27,159 She was well in the community. 546 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,758 She was well respected in the community. 547 00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:30,438 And if she said, I have this property in Ireland 548 00:30:30,439 --> 00:30:32,479 and you can make money investing in it, 549 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,399 that seemed to be good enough. 550 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:39,079 The next thing is, is we got to keep her detained. 551 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,639 We can't let her get out on bail because if she does, she's gone. 552 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,960 So we made a case, a very strong case, that she was a flight risk. 553 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,678 And the judge listened to our side and kept her 554 00:30:49,679 --> 00:30:52,560 in jail until we could be prepared for trial. 555 00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:58,119 As part of the scheme, Julia Parrish, on various dates, 556 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,119 communicated via email with Rose to encourage him to invest. 557 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,159 In the federal system, if you use the internet as, 558 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,438 for example, send email, that's wire fraud 559 00:31:11,439 --> 00:31:14,319 so she plead to that one count and got 27 months. 560 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,879 Once it was just presented to him, he was like, Oh, my God. 561 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,520 I had no idea. 562 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,560 Should he have known? Yeah. 563 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,879 But we all should have known. 564 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,840 Someone should have done something at some point. 565 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:30,718 Clyde ultimately wound up entering a plea 566 00:31:30,719 --> 00:31:33,078 to what we call misprison of felony, 567 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:35,358 which in layman's terms means 568 00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:39,600 that he knew she was committing fraud, and he helped cover it up. 569 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:45,079 He ultimately plead guilty and did prison time. 570 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Clyde never went back into the dark realm of being a criminal. 571 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,039 As far as being a wife and doing the homemaking stuff, 572 00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:01,240 she was amazing at that. 573 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,199 But at the end of the day, 574 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:04,559 it doesn't matter how well-kept you 575 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,920 are, you really have to know someone for who they are. 576 00:32:07,679 --> 00:32:13,078 Even if he did see those things, I think that we all have blinders 577 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:14,960 on with people that we love. 578 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,279 She was above-average intelligence, 579 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,759 and I would have thought for sure 580 00:32:21,399 --> 00:32:24,998 she would see the error of her ways and straighten up. 581 00:32:24,999 --> 00:32:26,200 But that wasn't the case. 582 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:48,760 Strabane is a small town. Everyone knows everyone. 583 00:32:48,919 --> 00:32:52,759 So to have someone blow into town the way she did this hurricane 584 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,359 {\an8}of colour and energy and ideas and creativity, and she was going 585 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:57,959 {\an8}to do this, and she was going to... 586 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,839 Yeah, it was fun in a sense. 587 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,079 She was American as well, which gave her this air 588 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,640 of mystique around here as well. 589 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,518 She was looking for an advertisement. 590 00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:12,119 I invited her into the office, and she was there in her red coat 591 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,839 and the black hair, and she had a colourful scarf on. 592 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,679 And yeah, very confident and flirty and nice. 593 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,518 And she says, Hi, I'm JJ. 594 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:23,119 And I said, Okay, JJ, what's your second name? 595 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,798 And she's, don't worry about a surname. 596 00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:25,799 Just JJ is fine. 597 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,879 She's calling herself JJ now. 598 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,000 She starts working then in Sand Mills in a spa, 599 00:33:33,159 --> 00:33:34,440 Health and Wellness Centre. 600 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,238 She had somehow talked her way into that and was talking 601 00:33:39,239 --> 00:33:40,719 about buying that business. 602 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,000 And that's what the advertiser ended up being, 603 00:33:43,239 --> 00:33:45,440 about the well-being spa, how she had taken it over. 604 00:33:53,879 --> 00:33:56,198 I suppose when we didn't get paid for advertisement, 605 00:33:56,199 --> 00:33:57,680 (chuckle) that was slightly alarming. 606 00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:02,679 It was a guy who was an Australian 607 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,080 and had been in a really serious accident. 608 00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:08,159 He ended up getting compensation. 609 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:09,759 She groomed him. 610 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,119 She convinced him that she was a qualified, 611 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,517 trained and experienced psychiatrist, 612 00:34:14,518 --> 00:34:17,359 and that she could help him through this PTSD 613 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,517 and help him deal with the trauma 614 00:34:18,518 --> 00:34:19,719 that he'd lived with. 615 00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:23,360 So the poor guy believed her, handed over his money, 616 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,918 and that was it. 617 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,360 {\an8}She worked her magic on me pretty well. 618 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,319 And the initial amount that went in there 619 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,040 was approximately 54,000 euro. 620 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,040 It was hard to get anybody to be named. 621 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,477 I could see the evidence, I could see the proof, 622 00:34:43,478 --> 00:34:45,320 I could sit down with people and look through 623 00:34:45,839 --> 00:34:47,359 where money had gone missing. 624 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,917 Then I would have made an approach and they would have 625 00:34:49,918 --> 00:34:51,199 been just mortified. 626 00:34:52,799 --> 00:34:56,558 She had managed to work her way into clothing businesses, 627 00:34:56,559 --> 00:34:58,558 furniture businesses, hardware. 628 00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:00,598 She'd managed to get her house furnished. 629 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,559 She had pretty much swindled half the businesses in this town, 630 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:06,360 including the Strabane Chronicle. 631 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,918 I spoke to Denise Adams, a lovely lady. 632 00:35:10,919 --> 00:35:12,558 Denise suffered very badly. 633 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:14,919 Tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands of pounds. 634 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,798 She'd either signed over the business or given a lot 635 00:35:17,799 --> 00:35:20,720 of money to Julia Holmes out of her own pocket. 636 00:35:21,479 --> 00:35:23,799 And I think it's almost bankrupt her. 637 00:35:24,879 --> 00:35:28,279 When I'd done all my paperwork and there was no more to be done, 638 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:31,080 it was time now, what keeping you, JJ? 639 00:35:31,479 --> 00:35:33,359 {\an8}So then she started making excuses 640 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,759 {\an8}that this million pound was coming, 641 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,519 million and a half was coming, and it never did come. 642 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,799 And she talked about receiving a letter from Julia Holmes, 643 00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:44,158 just talking about, you'll be fine. 644 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:45,279 You're a very strong woman. 645 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,558 And I think she was just resigned to the fact that she 646 00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:51,239 had lost money. She wasn't going to let it destroy her. 647 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,680 I think it nearly did. 648 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,719 I first came across her. 649 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,798 She was back in court in Down Patrick in County down 650 00:35:58,799 --> 00:36:00,959 for another fraud of one gentleman 651 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,279 to the amount of £18,000. 652 00:36:03,799 --> 00:36:05,599 She had already been in prison twice, 653 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,558 and she was at this stage heading for prison again if 654 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:10,279 she got into a trial. 655 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,640 When she came into that huge courtroom, 656 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:19,198 you could see her coming in to scan, and she scanned everybody. 657 00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:21,838 And I know she would have clicked onto me. 658 00:36:21,839 --> 00:36:23,158 I wanted her to see me. 659 00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:25,879 I wanted her to see, I'm watching you. 660 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,720 She had a tag on at that stage, an electronic tag, 661 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,838 and she had applied for the tag to be removed because she 662 00:36:32,839 --> 00:36:34,199 said it didn't suit her. 663 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,399 It wasn't meant to be a fashion statement, but anyway, 664 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,279 she wanted that removed, and then she just skipped town. 665 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,319 Her trail just vanished. 666 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,120 She could have been anywhere at that stage. 667 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,119 What an afternoon, about four o'clock, 668 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,039 I got a phone call on the shop phone 669 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,680 {\an8}from a friend of mine who was in a hotel around the corner. 670 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,279 {\an8}She said she was with this couple who were creating this honey. 671 00:37:23,279 --> 00:37:26,959 Could she ask them to drop around to me and to try and get 672 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,960 the honey to the right people? 673 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,439 She said, just so you know, 674 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,199 Croein, the woman, is wearing a wig 675 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,239 as she has terminal cancer. 676 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,559 And I said, Okay, well, I'll see what I can do for them. 677 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,198 The gentleman Tom seemed a very nervous type of person. 678 00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:44,760 Not at all comfortable. 679 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,359 Whereas she was quite forward, walked straight up to the desk I 680 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,558 was standing at, introduced herself and said, 681 00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:53,878 Oh, we're creating this. 682 00:37:53,879 --> 00:37:56,719 And if you can get these to maybe some of your friends in Dublin. 683 00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:58,839 And I said, yeah, leave them with me. 684 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:04,519 I picked the phone and rang a friend of mine in Dublin, 685 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,639 a senior journalist, and said, look, I have some products here. 686 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,558 Some of it has been suggested to be sent to you. 687 00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:16,959 But just instinctively, I feel something about this 688 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,918 that I don't trust, and I don't know why. 689 00:38:18,919 --> 00:38:20,439 And she said, Oh, go with your instinct, Paul. 690 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,198 Go with your instinct. And I said, 691 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:23,679 Yeah, but what if I'm wrong? 692 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,360 Because, apparently, she's dying of cancer. 693 00:38:29,879 --> 00:38:34,400 I only remember when we were beekeeping with him, 694 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,680 {\an8}he even bought us the suits, the two of us. 695 00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:47,000 He would have a special tool that you do to uncap the honey. 696 00:38:47,839 --> 00:38:50,119 It would pull all the honey out into this bucket, 697 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,440 and then we just jar it. 698 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,158 They got invited to everything and anything. 699 00:38:58,159 --> 00:38:59,999 I mean, they won an award for the honey, 700 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,238 as you probably know, the Blas na hÉireann, 701 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,999 which is a highly regarded, well-respected award for food 702 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,159 producers in Ireland. 703 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,839 {\an8}They went to restaurant awards that everybody goes to, 704 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,918 {\an8}made sure they got their photos posted with the right 705 00:39:14,919 --> 00:39:16,199 {\an8}people in the right places. 706 00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:22,599 {\an8}She was constantly tweeting quite a few of us 707 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,039 {\an8}and showing photos and photos of products, trying to get 708 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,159 promotion and stuff. 709 00:39:27,279 --> 00:39:34,079 One day, this person in the UK, tagged into our photos and to our 710 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,760 tweets and said, Don't believe that woman, she's a fake. 711 00:39:37,879 --> 00:39:40,320 (phone notification) 712 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,478 So in May 2013, the PSNI were getting pretty 713 00:39:58,479 --> 00:40:03,119 desperate to find Julia Holmes, and they launched a public 714 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,879 appeal through the media. 715 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,439 A glamorous granny who jumped bail 716 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,159 on fraud charges two years ago, 717 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,799 maybe in the Galway area, police had said. 718 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:16,079 Julia Holmes, who also goes by the name 719 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,119 of Dr. Watson and Julia Parrish, 720 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,320 vanished after being accused of an 18,000-pound fraud. 721 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,679 I found out that she had absconded and she had gotten away, 722 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,759 and they were looking for her. Then I was really sleuthing then 723 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,879 because now I'm doing international sleuthing. 724 00:40:33,279 --> 00:40:38,039 She had created this fake company in which she was 725 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,558 claiming to have cancer and she had all these bees, 726 00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:44,278 and this was harvesting honey from her own hives. 727 00:40:44,279 --> 00:40:46,759 {\an8}If you all stand over here. I'll stand in front of the beehive. 728 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:47,879 {\an8}Hello, you. 729 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,799 {\an8}Oh, you're not happy, are you? 730 00:40:49,919 --> 00:40:51,478 They only found one beehive. 731 00:40:51,479 --> 00:40:54,598 They obviously knew there was no way you could go into 732 00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:56,319 production with just one. 733 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,680 And then it was discovered that they were just 734 00:40:59,279 --> 00:41:03,079 buying honey from a reputable supermarket store 735 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,720 and decanting it into a posher jar, shall we say. 736 00:41:09,479 --> 00:41:15,598 She was entering honey contests, and this is ending up on not 737 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:17,120 just social media, but media. 738 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,478 She's showing up in newspapers, so she's back to being 739 00:41:20,479 --> 00:41:21,598 very brazen again. 740 00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:24,479 Totally different name, of course, but it's still her. 741 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,959 I think someone had called out the fact that she wore wigs, 742 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,839 and that's where the cancer thing started was, Oh, I have cancer. 743 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,598 If the story had been true, if she actually had cancer, 744 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:37,278 and if they were creating that honey, 745 00:41:37,279 --> 00:41:38,639 it was a good product, 746 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,760 obviously, and a genius, really. 747 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:49,918 This particular Sunday night was rather quiet. 748 00:41:49,919 --> 00:41:52,040 As I said, it just landed a few days before. 749 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,320 So we were settling in and was getting to know the new unit. 750 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,439 One of my colleagues came out and said that there's a man 751 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:01,559 wanted to speak with you. 752 00:42:01,919 --> 00:42:04,599 So went into the public office. 753 00:42:05,279 --> 00:42:08,439 I saw a family that I would know locally, 754 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:09,598 the leader of the family, 755 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:11,960 and four young males belonging to him. 756 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:13,478 They were very upset. 757 00:42:13,479 --> 00:42:16,159 They were blessing themselves with the holy pictures. 758 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,000 Brought them into a room out back. 759 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,199 The story then he started to tell us was amazing. 760 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,158 The four lads with him had gone out 761 00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:32,518 on the Askeaton Rathkeale road, down near Nantinan Cemetery, 762 00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:34,640 and they knew that the place had been vacant. 763 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,878 They reckoned that the people living in it had been 764 00:42:36,879 --> 00:42:37,879 gone for some time. 765 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,719 He said that they set about looking for scrap 766 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:44,558 around the sheds and the yards, 767 00:42:44,559 --> 00:42:47,359 and that it got to better them then 768 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,439 that when they weren't disturbed, they decided to break into the 769 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:51,760 house to see if they could find more. 770 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,278 Myself and Ian were in Limerick, and Ian was swimming 771 00:43:01,279 --> 00:43:03,918 heavy at the time, right? So he was inside doing a gala. 772 00:43:03,919 --> 00:43:06,039 So we said we got up the road 773 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,399 and we get a paper and a sandwich, 774 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,719 and there was splashed all over the front of the paper. 775 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:11,719 Two people absconded, blah, blah, blah. 776 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:12,960 Nobody knows where they are. 777 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,878 So we saw the article in Limerick Leader. 778 00:43:16,879 --> 00:43:20,158 We went to the neighbours to see if there was any movement 779 00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:21,159 in the last while. 780 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,199 We just went in and had a look around. 781 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,919 Looking back on the timeline, it would have been exactly 782 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:29,959 when everything actually happened, 783 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,400 the weekend that we were there. 784 00:43:31,839 --> 00:43:35,760 She obviously had a plan, and that was that, really. 785 00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:45,360 The leader of the family had said to me, the Ruttle man, 786 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:49,080 up from Nantinan Cemetery, was the house we were looking for, 787 00:43:49,279 --> 00:43:51,798 and that the lady with him 788 00:43:51,799 --> 00:43:53,559 was wanted by the police in the North. 789 00:43:55,799 --> 00:43:57,918 Bear in mind, it's nearly 10: 00 to 3: 00 in the morning at this 790 00:43:57,919 --> 00:44:00,999 stage, and we landed to the farmhouse. 791 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,759 I suppose what was in our head was we had to keep an open mind 792 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,399 that what the people at the station were telling us 793 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,239 might not be necessarily what's going on. 794 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,479 We climbed over this gate, myself and five colleagues, 795 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,000 and went in to a house with no power, no light, no electricity. 796 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,879 Scrap on the ground, place in total darkness. 797 00:44:23,279 --> 00:44:24,760 We're all operating with torchlight. 798 00:44:27,279 --> 00:44:28,598 Straight away, even though it was May, 799 00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,279 you could feel the coldness in the house. 800 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,799 Walked then into a kitchen and you could see a big table 801 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,320 with a lot of notes and letters on the table. 802 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,400 If you find this, don't revive us. 803 00:44:42,839 --> 00:44:43,919 We have said goodbye. 804 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,400 Words to that effect. 805 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,079 Got up to the top of the stairs, and the first door on the left 806 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,000 was slightly ajar. 807 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,080 I stood into the room. 808 00:44:57,159 --> 00:44:58,598 And there they were. 809 00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:05,360 As described, two corpses, very much decomposed, 810 00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:09,199 had been there a long time, and a shocking sight. 811 00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:12,720 It was an absolute shock for us all. 812 00:45:13,839 --> 00:45:15,919 They didn't get to say goodbye to him or anything. 813 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:20,000 And there was a lot of things unsaid. 814 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,719 It looked for all the world to us that it was a murder suicide, 815 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:34,719 that there was a firearms used because of the position 816 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,799 of the bodies and her face had been damaged. 817 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,479 I took it that under bad light, that she may have been shot. 818 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,959 What I did notice was there was an ash bucket 819 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,679 at the end of the bed and there was other bits and pieces around, 820 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,080 but there was nothing remarkable else. 821 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,239 REPORTER: Tragedy calls to a rural community. 822 00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:57,639 The bodies of Thomas and Julia Ruttle were discovered 823 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,759 by Gardaí in an upstairs bedroom at their home here just before 824 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,040 three o'clock this morning. 825 00:46:03,159 --> 00:46:06,320 It was clear that both had died violently. 826 00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:09,759 Then the postmortem took place 827 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,400 and there was no fireman discharged. 828 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,359 REPORTER: The inquest into their deaths 829 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,399 today heard how the embers of three 830 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,159 makeshift barbecues were found in a fireplace in the bedroom. 831 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,558 There was a chimney in the room, and there was windows 832 00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:24,120 and whatever else, had all been sealed. 833 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,239 It cancelled all the air out of the room. 834 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,478 The state pathologist Mary Cassidy said the cause 835 00:46:29,479 --> 00:46:32,838 of the couple's death cannot be confirmed, but the circumstances 836 00:46:32,839 --> 00:46:35,640 were consistent with carbon monoxide poisoning. 837 00:46:35,839 --> 00:46:38,679 Coroner Antoinette Simon said verdicts of suicide 838 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,000 were the only option. 839 00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:48,959 It just seemed a really strange turn of events for her 840 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,039 to go out like that. 841 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,359 I just thought she would just continue on until she died, 842 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,440 a little old lady at 90 still conning people out of their money. 843 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,559 In the inquest, I really wanted to know who died first. 844 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,479 Did she force him to do that? 845 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,519 It's all those notes that they left. 846 00:47:04,799 --> 00:47:05,799 She wrote them all. 847 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,519 Most of them lies, but she wrote everything. 848 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,640 She did it. 849 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,559 That's what I like to believe, anyway. 850 00:47:14,839 --> 00:47:16,239 We'll never know, obviously. 851 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:21,959 Evil. Evil is what you call her. 852 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,360 Just pure evil. 853 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:25,239 Evil. 854 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,759 She was on the run the whole time, 855 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,999 but she didn't care about that trail of destruction 856 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,199 that she left. 857 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,158 You can always make more money, but the damage that she 858 00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:44,199 did to families. 859 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:49,359 My whole personality is built around it. 860 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,479 I had to put up a wall. 861 00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:55,399 That was Ian's birthday, and you were given out. 862 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,639 He was vulnerable, and this person just took him over 863 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,879 and took over his whole life, changed completely. 864 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,679 And yes, I'm angry because everything would have been so 865 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,759 different, and the boys would have their father, 866 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,239 and he would love 867 00:48:09,919 --> 00:48:13,719 to see the men that they've turned out because he had 868 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:15,879 lots to do with it. (emotional) God, sorry. 869 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,159 Sorry, Lads. It's okay. Oh, my God. 870 00:48:21,479 --> 00:48:22,919 I'm sorry, I didn't expect that. 871 00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:24,559 Anyway. 872 00:48:25,279 --> 00:48:26,479 Anyway. 873 00:48:27,199 --> 00:48:28,360 Good? Yeah. 874 00:48:30,839 --> 00:48:34,440 Yeah, and if he was alive, he would be a part of their lives. 875 00:48:34,839 --> 00:48:36,040 Sorry. 876 00:48:51,279 --> 00:48:53,120 Rationally, I have been assured 877 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,158 by police, that they did a DNA test, 878 00:48:57,159 --> 00:48:58,519 and they are 100% it's her. 879 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,918 It just seems so unbelievable in such 880 00:49:04,919 --> 00:49:08,439 a strange and very dramatic end for a person who lived 881 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:09,680 a very dramatic life. 882 00:49:12,799 --> 00:49:16,080 There are days that I think, was it really her?